Friday
Jul 03rd
| Paul French vs Tom Doctoroff And The Question Of China Experts |
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*Thanks to Thomas Crampton for getting the conversation started at ThomasCrampton.com
Janet Carmosky, CEO, The China Business NetworkJanet is a career China business specialist who completed a BA Chinese Studies, (University of Pennsylvania 1985), then resided in China – Xi’an, Hong Kong, Shanghai – from 1985-2003, with sabbaticals in USA: Washington, D.C. 1988-1990, Berkeley, CA 1999. In her first decade working in and with China she managed import-export, sourcing, and buying agency programs. Since 1993, she has worked in senior management of consulting and operations, with posts including: Director of Burson-Marsteller PR (Shanghai 2001-2003): Director of Operations for Web Connection/chinadotcom, (Shanghai 2000-2001); General Manager, Richina Fashion Retail, (Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong 1997-1999); Asst Vice President Richina Capital, (Shanghai, 1994-1997); Senior Manager, Coopers & Lybrand Strategy Consulting, (Shanghai 1993-1994); Senior Account Executive, William E. Connor & Associates, (Hong Kong and Xian 1990-1993); and Sales Manager, Beijing Trade Exchange, (Washington, DC and Beijing 1986-1990). Her past and current clients for China strategy and implementation include: Office Depot, Wella AG, Bacardi, Marriott, Continental Airlines, Wal*Mart, Corning, Waste Management, Sony, Citroen, Alcatel, PR Newswire, Ethicon Endosurgery, Briggs & Stratton, Unilever, Alpharma, Givenchy, Yue Sai Kan. She also works on USA commercial and communications strategy for the Ministry of Science and Technology of the PRC and other Chinese agencies. Below please find a transcript of the podcast interview: Welcome to the China Business Network, “Who’s Who in China Business,”with your host, Christine Lu. CHRISTINE LU: This week got off to an interesting start with a debate that erupted over at Thomas Crampton’s blog between Paul French (who just came out with his book Carl Crow a Tough Old China Hand); and Tom Doctoroff, CEO of Greater China Jade JWT and author of the book, “Billions Selling to the New Chinese Consumer.” Joining me right now on the phone is Janet Carmosky, CEO and Co-Founder of the China Business Network to offer her insights on this debate. Janet - thanks for joining me today. JANET CARMOSKY: Always a pleasure. CHRISTINE LU: Now Janet, you’ve got a background in both Chinese studies and twenty-plus years invested in China’s economic growth as well. So you’ve got a little bit of the academic and a little bit of the business angle. Bring us a perspective on this conversation online between Paul French and Tom Doctoroff? JANET CARMOSKY: I have to say it’s probably not a bad way to sell more books. Particularly if you’re Paul French and you’re launching a new book in an environment where Billions has been out for a while and is doing fairly well. While I wouldn;t eb surprised if Paul French were genuinely irked - he has this passion about the importance of Carl Crow and how he paved the way for Doctoroff and the entire advertising industry in China - and from a marketing standpoint it;'s quire natural that he would want to grab some of the attention on Doctoroff's book and place it back on Carl Crow. CHRISTINE LU: Now French says current day China gurus – he mentions from the West - falsely claim pioneering roles in the opening of China. I was personally a Chinese studies major myself in college, and I get where he is coming from, but also I feel like the slate was sort of wiped clean wasn’t it during the cultural revolution. And definitely in the time since then, there has been an opening and a lot of pioneering going on in the past 20 years. What are your thoughts on this? JANET CARMOSKY: There is so much to look at in your question. Starting with "that current day China gurus falsely claim pioneering roles." First of all, as far as the pioneering goes, China’s opening to the west in our modern era, which was of course the idea of the Chinese government, was calculated very directly as a means for bringing foreign capital, foreign technology, and foreign management expertise to China. No one who expects to be taken seriously as an observer of China’s economy can claim that the economic miracle of the past 30 years is due to efforts entirely Chinese. The opening to the west has specifically sought to tap not only the expertise at the enterprise level at an individual level, but also to take some institutional learning from the West, joining WTO for example. As far as the slate being wiped clean in the closed years, between the early decades of the 20th century, and 1978 when China opened again, did Tom Doctoroff's book mention Buick? Carl Crow was the advertising man who first pushed the Buick in Shanghai back in the 1920’s. Fast forward to 1999, and Buick has had a great take off in the Shanghai market - partially because the Buick was the sexiest and sleekest and most powerful car in Shanghai in the 1920’s. So I think Paul French just kind of wants to be a bit provocative and get into the bait. But pioneering, there is a lot of new management technology both at an enterprise level and at a macro level, a multilateral organizational level that Chinese has specifically tapped from the West, so I don’t think that that is specifically false to say that there is still pioneering happening now. CHRISTINE LU: That leads me to my last question –but a very important one that I’ve been debating or trying to get the answer to, I should say for a while now. What is a China Guru, Janet? What is a “China Hand?” I think I’m speaking for a lot of people here because I hear it all the time. “Old China Hand,” “China Expert,” “China Guru.” I have heard the term used honestly for anyone with two years experience in China to 20 years or so, such as yourself and I’m just curious as to what criteria one must fulfill in order to be able to call themselves or have others refer to themselves as such. (Laughter) That’s a loaded question… JANET CARMOSKY: It’s a great question! It’s huge subject matter. I mean being a “China guru” is like being a “guru on eating.” Could anyone be the “ultimate expert” on every way of eating everything in every culture ever? Absurd. I want to go back to the word “guru” for a minute. It’s a Hindu word that means “teacher,” so in order to be a “guru” one must take deep knowledge gained from personal experience and offer it in a way that guides the audience or the listener to learn. The success of a guru is based on the progress of the students – not how famous the guru is. So I think the people that I would consider my China gurus I tend to measure on this ratio: how much time they dedicate on continuous improvement of their knowledge and their craft, and on mentoring people younger in the field; versus how much time they spend promoting themselves to audiences whose definition of a China expert is simply, "someone who seems to know more about China then I do." CHRISTINE LU: You make a good point because let’s take me for example. I tell people my first time in China and I’ve been back and forth since 1995 and you get, “Wow, you’ve been there a long time!” But honestly, that no way makes me an expert just because there are 12 – 13 years of experience with China. I feel like I’m sort of making stuff up as I go along and still learning. So you’re trying to say that Guru in this case shouldn’t be applied to folks who are promoting themselves. JANET CARMOSKY: Who are promoting themselves? CHRISTINE LU: Promoting themselves and I would say a set number of years. I feel like the hundreds of interviews I’ve done in the past year, a lot of times I think there is this perception I noticed that the amount of years you spend in China can directly correlates with how much you know, but maybe that’s not the case? JANET CARMOSKY: I think it’s pretty darn hard to have a really deep understanding of what’s going on in China without spending quite a number of years there. I don’t think, if I just tracked my own progress there, the ability to see some event, some phenomenon in China and correctly diagnose the cause of it, the effects of it and the consequences of it at five years in China – I was way off. At ten years in China, I was still way off from where I am now. Granted after five years in China you are going to be a lot smarter of looking at some sort of phenomenon and understanding what it’s all about and what it really means. But you know ten or fifteen or twenty or thirty or thirty five years down the line, one would hope if you are living in China and as I said continually improving your craft, you would have a higher understanding, you would have more insight. Then again, there are people who live quite happily in China and really don’t spend that much time developing their insight, they’re just working at their job and doing what they need to do to get ahead. Short answer to yoru question: I think it’s really hard to develop any really deep or broad insight without at least ten years in. You can have all kinds of executional expertise in a particular niche in a much shorter time. I mean, two years of sourcing rubber gaskets in a particular providence then you’ve probably got a lock on sourcing rubber gaskets. CHRISTINE LU: Actually there are a lot of folks like that where they have that “niche” really nailed down in their sectors. But would you call them a China expert? JANET CARMOSKY: I would call them the perfect China expert for someone who needs help sourcing rubber gaskets. But I think there is wishful thinking in this blanket term “China Expert”, to the extent that people indulge in the hope that someone with experience in one field or one area over a period of time is really going to have across the board, execution-level expertise. And granted lets talk about the person who has been sourcing rubber gaskets for two years - he probably has some insights as to how China really works, but his deep executional expertise is just going to be in that one area. The insights are going to be helpful no matter what but how helpful? How applicable across the board? I mean someone who has been in Fujian for two years has really got no idea what happens in Beijing and vice versa, so The China Business Network – here is what this is all about: proof that there is so much expertise, so much competence and so much willingness to continue to learn about China. If we only knew where to look for it and didn’t have to just grab the first person that we met who seemed to know more about China then we did and anoint him - unfair to him as well as to you - your "China Guru." CHRISTINE LU: All of a sudden I feel like interviewing someone who is an expert on rubber gaskets for some reason. (Laughing) JANET CARMOSKY: Fascinating stuff! CHRISTINE LU: You make the same point that there are so many layers, so many sectors, so many regions to deal with. I really just wanted to get you on the phone today to touch upon that because it’s a question people have. Where do they go? Who do they turn to? The China expert what does that mean? Let’s start there. And so I’m glad we were able to get that insight from you today. JANET CARMOSKY: The very minimum you really need to have spent some time there, with eyes and ears open. CHRISTINE LU: Hop on the plane and just start there. Let’s just call it that. Thanks Janet so much for your time as always. We’ve been talking to Janet Carmosky, CEO and CO-Founder of the China Business Network. For more information please visit the China Business Network.Com. Thanks for listening, I’m Christine Lu.
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Janet Carmosky
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Thomas Crampton
Tom Doctoroff
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